[Annamaria]

I've received several questions about Eight Belles so I published this... letm e know what you all think:

http://ultimatehorsesite.com/articles/at_eightbelles.htm

[Isobella]

Overall- great job on the article! However, she broke her ankle, not her leg (I'm not sure what bone, but from what I know of it wasn't in her leg).

[Annamaria]

I'm not sure, since everyone is saying "ankles", but the most specific news reports said it was from the fetlock joint up to the cannons. "Leg" is the best thing I thi

[Roux]

She had compound fractures in both the cannon and sesamoid bones... Basically the same injury Barbaro had but in both front legs...
There has been some suggestion that the breeding selection is causing many TBs to have severly lightweight bones...
Honestly I have to agree, maybe not with the 'their bones are so weak this happens' but I have definately seen the size and structure of the racing TB decrease over the last decade +.

[Annamaria]

Is there any research that indicates whether TBs have smaller bones than historically, or comapred to other breeds?

From talking to farriers and other horse owners, most complain about TB's having bad and small hooves and legs... which is why they aren't really used in a lot of competitions around here (barrels/gaming). There are a few, but people prefer QHs or something with bigger legs and feet.

[reicheru]

From talking to farriers and other horse owners, most complain about TB's having bad and small hooves and legs... which is why they aren't really used in a lot of competitions around here (barrels/gaming). There are a few, but people prefer QHs or something with bigger legs and feet.

I disagree. There are sports that are just as physically demanding as barrels/gaming that the TB excels at [eventing for one]; it boils down to personal preference. Also, I could point you towards some QHs with itty bitty hooves... as well as some QHs who are built like a TB. It boils down to conformation. Form dictates Function. If the horse's leg conformation is going cause soundness issues, expect problems. Doesn't have much to do with breed. Breed two horses with serious conformation flaws and soundness issues, expect the same from baby.

Do TBs have smaller bird bones compared to other breeds?

Depends on how the horse is bred. I know a few TBs who, while not flops on the track, weren't awe inspiring, so are now breeding sport horses.

http://www.arabianracing.org/

I would be VERY interested in finding out the breakdown statistics for QH and Arab Racing.

[Annamaria]

I disagree. There are sports that are just as physically demanding as barrels/gaming that the TB excels at [eventing for one]; it boils down to personal preference. Also, I could point you towards some QHs with itty bitty hooves... as well as some QHs who are built like a TB. It boils down to conformation. Form dictates Function. If the horse's leg conformation is going cause soundness issues, expect problems. Doesn't have much to do with breed. Breed two horses with serious conformation flaws and soundness issues, expect the same from baby.

Do TBs have smaller bird bones compared to other breeds?

Depends on how the horse is bred. I know a few TBs who, while not flops on the track, weren't awe inspiring, so are now breeding sport horses.

http://www.arabianracing.org/

I would be VERY interested in finding out the breakdown statistics for QH and Arab Racing.

That's true. There is a lot of TB blood in many QHs, and there are many show-bred QHs that have tiny feet.
The QHs used in performance tend to have bigger hooves and legs.... there are a ton of show QHs that wouldn't stand up to barrel racing and i'm sure the same thing goes for TBs in the racing world.
So many people are complaining now that Tbs are being bred for speed and not stability, especially after a New Scientist article that showed 95% of TBs descend from the Darley arabian. (here: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7941 )

I've barrel raced for many years and seen thousands of races.... why is it you don't see these kind of injuries happening at a barrel race? Maybe once in a great while you will see a fracture or serious injury, but not nearly as often as you see in racing. And they are making very tight turns, not just running straight. Most people dont' start barrel horses competing until 4 or 5 and many last well into their teens.

See if you can find any research on breakdowns for QH or Arabs.... I'd love to see them too.

Some people complain that TBs are raced too young and thus the breakdowns-- but I don't know of any research that indicates that is true (I've heard some vets say starting young increases bone denisty and increases strength...??). I still think they need to wait another year though, most other disciplines do.
Also, when I was doing research on TBs with broken legs, there are plenty of examples of older horses with fractures too, not just 2- and 3- year olds.

[kenolvr]

Hey did you guys see this?

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/05/07/...6436x1200302853

PETA is now involved.

[reicheru]

I would like to set up an anit-PETA protest.

[Isobella]

Agreed. PETA often just makes things worse. WTF are they doing in the photography anyways?

[Annamaria]

PETA gets involved with anything to do with animals, even when the know nothing about it.

PETA should have their tax-exempt status revoked, IMO, and should be investigated for fraud (they kill most animals that come into their care) and sued for slander (they slander almost every industry).

PETA is now trying to SUE the people involved with Eight Belles... imagine if YOUR horse had a broken leg and you humanely euthanized it, and PETA sued you! not only are you mourning the loss of your horse, incurring a financial loss... you're also being sued by people who know nothing about your situation!

[Isobella]

Ridiculous.

Didn't PETA post something a few years ago about how riding horses is cruel?

[ImaDixieDarlin89]

I don't understand why the racing industry can't just state the obvious when they try to figure out why these tragedies happen.These horses are just babies.They have not matured and they have been trained to race since they were barely over 1.People just keep saying oh she was drugged or it was the track surface or something like that.Kinda ridiculous.PETA is just a shame.If they are going to blame the jockey why not blame the trainer,he's the one who ran her.Not saying that they should but blaming the jockey is ridiculous.Obviously nothing was wrong with her before she fell.She ran a very strong race and if something had've been she would've dropped back.She looked fine when she crossed the finish line.I just wish that PETA would do something more constructive with the influence that they have.They do not help themselves making outrageous claims.They should fight for something that will make a difference in the industry.Having that jockey's license suspended isn't going to accomplish anything really.I think that it is really interesting that Ruffian,Pine Island, and Eight Belles so resemble each other.I don't know much about other horses running but they were all very big babies.They said Belles was 17 hands at 3 years old.That's really big.Thoroughbreds are also being breed for speed which requires long,thin legs and all.I wonder if that has any influence on it.I know that there are a lot of males that break down too but I would be curious to know if it has anything to do with the females or anything.Like possibly certain hormones or something you know.Lol I don't know just some thoughts I had.Such a sad,sad thing to happen.

[ImaDixieDarlin89]

I was talking to my boss at the horse farm that I work at and I had commented on the size of some of these horses and she said that everything was getting bigger I guess as adaptation or whatever but that didn't really make sense to me because the breeding of these horses is controlled and very carefully planned because of how valuable they are.I do think that some of the breeding may adversely affect the horses.
Again for PETA,I do not mean to offend anyone by this and I am sorry if I do but these tragedies are horse racing.It has been going on for a long time.I highly doubt for as outrageous as PETA is that they would be able to change these centuries of tradition.I believe that these people do have a passion for their horses as Larry Jones said in that quote "These things are our family. We put everything into them that we have and they have given us everything they have." Those horses are a lot like "things" to those people.They are used for profit.I believe they do care yes but in such an unforgiving world tragedies like Belles,Barbaro,Ruffian,Pine Island,etc.,etc., happen.You know what's wierd,I didn't hear near as much about Barbaro from PETA as Belles.Belles would have been absolutely miserable if they hadnt've put her down.They did humanely euthanize her as Annamaria said.That should definately count for something.They are so ridiculous.

[reicheru]

If they are going to blame the jockey why not blame the trainer,he's the one who ran her.

No one specifically should be blamed. As much as it was the jockey's job to ride, it was the trainer's job to train. It's the industry.

She ran a very strong race and if something had've been she would've dropped back.

Maybe. Maybe not. Adrenaline and endorphines can be a good or bad thing. You also have to remember that TBs are bred to run run run run. I've heard of dogs who, even though they were terribly injured, kept trying to track. Some call it heart. I call it instinct.

I think that it is really interesting that Ruffian,Pine Island, and Eight Belles so resemble each other.

How so? I find it more interesting that both Eight Belles and Barbaro come from Mr. Prospector lines... who wasn't exactly known for his soundness.

Thoroughbreds are also being breed for speed which requires long,thin legs and all.

Long thin legs do not equal speed. I did find out from a friend who is into the AQHA racing scene that on her local track alone, there are QH racehorse breakdowns than TBs, which I find interesting because most of these horses are at least 1/4 - 1/2 TB.

I know that there are a lot of males that break down too but I would be curious to know if it has anything to do with the females or anything.

Gender has nothing to do with the price of rice in China and you can't go on general statistics for this because they can be skewed. i.e. you run more mare/filly races than colt/gelding/stallion races, of course, there are going to be more filly/mare injuries/breakdowns.

I agree. I don't remember hearing much of ANYTHING from PETA [or PITA if you will] about Barbaro.

[ImaDixieDarlin89]

No one specifically should be blamed. As much as it was the jockey's job to ride, it was the trainer's job to train. It's the industry.

My point was that it was a ludacris claim for them to attempt to try and blame the jockey at all.It is definately the industry as I also stated.

Maybe. Maybe not. Adrenaline and endorphines can be a good or bad thing. You also have to remember that TBs are bred to run run run run. I've heard of dogs who, even though they were terribly injured, kept trying to track. Some call it heart. I call it instinct.

Yes definately...and trained to run run run.I would've just thought that if she had've been hurt enough to break down that badly that it would've shown somewhat before she fell.Obviously her legs were not broken when she crossed the finish line or she would not have run that smoothly.Yea I wouldn't call it heart either.The horses instinct of survival is somewhat manipulated to get them to run like that i.e. the use of whips so it is very much instinct.

How so? I find it more interesting that both Eight Belles and Barbaro come from Mr. Prospector lines... who wasn't exactly known for his soundness.

Interesting because of the likeness of them.Not saying that it had anything to do with it but I just found it interesting.But they were all incredible fillys that had such a tragic end.Hhmm that is interesting.I hadn't thought of that.

Long thin legs do not equal speed. I did find out from a friend who is into the AQHA racing scene that on her local track alone, there are QH racehorse breakdowns than TBs, which I find interesting because most of these horses are at least 1/4 - 1/2 TB.

That is very interesting indeed.I wonder what would contribute to that.Any ideas?

Gender has nothing to do with the price of rice in China and you can't go on general statistics for this because they can be skewed. i.e. you run more mare/filly races than colt/gelding/stallion races, of course, there are going to be more filly/mare injuries/breakdowns.

I had not looked into the statistics at all I was just wondering if maybe there was some sort of physiological difference that could affect the fillies at all.

I agree. I don't remember hearing much of ANYTHING from PETA [or PITA if you will] about Barbaro.

I know definately ridiculous.Like Annamaria said about those people being criticized so much for humanely euthanizing her.You think it would've counted for more than keeping the horse alive in that much pain.Not that I think that they shouldnt've tried to save Barbaro but that he had to have been in a lot of pain and they chose to prolong it to try to save him.Again I do not believe that trying to save him was a bad thing but I don't see why that wouldnt've sparked PETA's attention more than this

[ManOWar101]

I don`t really think its the racing to young..I think its the breeding

People who breed Unbridled or Mr.Prospector to every mare on earth, just because they produced winners. Not caring they produced frailness in horses.They also are inbreeded and just using the same old stallions and mares.I think they should tap into some foreign country's or get some new blood. And also instead of breeding just two classic winners together, breed horses that complement each other, and try and stay away from horses who produce fragile offspring. If you look at pictures of Man'OWar or other horses around that time, they had bigger bones(and this did not effect his speed at all) and some of them would run over 70 races in about a 4-5 year career, and I don`t know about the stats for breakdowns in that time. But it would seem they less. SO instead of whiching to fake stuff(which is ground up carpet and rubber) breed horses that can real natural stuff.(also why i think we haven`t had a TC winner in 30 years, no horse is durable enough to do it)

and drugs are defiantly not helping the situation, like lasix(sp) for example
and for PETA, well they can fall of the earth for all I care, there crazy, they kill more aniamls ten they help actually(take the seals for example)

[reicheru]

http://www.courant.com/services/newspaper/...0,1246411.story

Necropsy Results: Freak Accident.

[bayou1988]

i know this is old but i just saw a horse this week end completely shatter is pasterns he was not being trained for racing it was a fluke that happened when he took a bad step so Peta doesn't know what they are talking about!

[Linda_Er]

hugs

I get this all the time - hes too thin, hes too fat, hes too fit, hes not fit - all in one week

Just smile thru gritted teeth and ignore them

I think some people expect TB types to be all ribby ...? He looks fab xx
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